[Cyprinodontiformes] Projecto Internacional de Goodeiídeos (14)

[cyprinodontiformes viviparos.com]

Prezados colegas,

Já estou inscrito no Goodeid Working Group (GWG) mas ainda não explorei bem
os conteúdos entretanto lançados por falta de disponibilidade.
Nesta série segue-se a continuação do diálogo na fase de preparação do
processo.
Como devem compreender seria muito exaustivo transcrever todo o diálogo,
pelo que serão apenas consideradas para este propósito as partes mais
relacionadas com o historial da criação do grupo.
É óbvio que quando tanta gente ligada aos Goodeiídeos se junta há sempre
trocas de impressão paralelas e até houve a revelação, em primeira-mão de
uma espécie nova.
Mas para já fiquemos com as minhas respostas aos desenvolvimentos da altura
já aqui divulgados, além da reacção que tive ao desenrolar dos contactos
mantidos.
Nunca é demais alertar-vos para o facto de que, dentro das disponibilidades
de tempo livre, será sempre possível fazer-se alguma tradução se necessário.



-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 16:42
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - Colin Grist's ( January 5th 2009 ) message.

Dear all,

It’s rather difficult for me to keep up in touch with you as often as I
would like.
So here are my latest contributions to our discussion, based on the messages
arrival order :

Colin Grist ( Monday, January 5th 2009 )

Colin; it was excellent to congregate another member on this group.
Ciao Alessio Arbuatti, benevenuto ( well come ) !
You and others like yourself do have the right profile to participate on a
discussion like this one. Thank you for you presence on this list of
addresses.
By the way, I would like to ask permission to the group in order to extend
parts of our dialogue to a relatively small cluster of Portuguese fish
keepers, who have unquestionable interest on these species. Please give me
your feedback.

Now, about the excellent suggestion of Colin, here are my Goodeids
communities in the present time ( as of January 2009 ) :

Ameca splendens ( origin unknown / a local pet store trade in from Germany
and Czech Republic in 2002 and 2003 respectively ) – a few hundred
individuals *

Skiffia multipunctata ( Lago Camecuaro, from Martin Ravn Tversted collection
) – only 1 last female **

Xenotoca eiseni ( origin unknown / a local pet store trade in from Germany
in 2003 ) – close to 100 individuals * 

(*) if the garden fishpond outdoors group was able to resist this past 4
days intense cold weather conditions and quite unusual low temperatures;
otherwise only a small group of 30 Ameca spendens fry and 5 Xenotoca eiseni
fry are held in reserve indoors, on a 350 litres “ wintering “ tank inside
my parent's residential garage ( carport ) at temperatures ranging from 15ºC
to 18ºC.

(**) this particular female was a fry, escapee from the capture process of
all fish of this species kept in Lisbon, two years ago, when I was compelled
to give up all my fish, except for those it was possible to move back to my
parents residence ( or that have been set aside there for the last years ).
Once let free on the garden pond it was impossible, until now, to recapture
this female in order to joint her with others of her kind, and the fish
overcome last winter in outdoors conditions resisting very well and showing
impressive activity even at lowest temperatures.   

I need to explain and let very clear a few important details about my
present fish collection.
As I wrote before, in an earlier message as well as on (**); there are no
conditions at all to keep my tanks working at the moment.
The last fish on my Lisbon’s collection, preserved earlier in 150 to 250
litres tanks, ( five Goodeidae species included ),  were all distributed
among friends.
Only two relative small groups from the more adapted and less demanding
species, ( and also easiest to find on our local aquarium trade business ),
are reserved at my parent’s, in a year round alternation system between an
outdoors garden fishpond and a 350 litres “ wintering “ tank, where usually
( except for this season or the first time ) a group of around 100 small fry
of each of the species are held in reserve from late November to late March,
as safety and preventative measure; ( like for facing any potential winter
severe temperature drops like on this last few days ).
Has you might understand, in order of my absence, these fish are never
uphold in the most constructive conditions, in particular during indoors
wintering period, so it was imperative to choose most prudently which fish
species would be preserved under such conditions.
Last autumn, for the first time in more than 20 years, it was not possible
to dry out  the fishpond in order to capture the required number of fish for
indoors wintering purpose.  
Only by glancing situations like this one, I had to give up other species
kept before.
Nonetheless I am still waiting for the next opportunity to set up again a
fish room and a few pools inside a greenhouse.
Please wait for more comments on next messages.


Best regards

Miguel



-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 17:30
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - Omar Dominguez ( January 6th 2009 ) message.

Dear all,

Here I am for my second contribution on this week discussion, based on the
messages arrival order :

Omar Dominguez ( Tuesday, January 6th 2009 )

Excellent news Omar !!!!
Please don't worry about your English we understand you perfectly.
I had before an opportunity for expressing my admiration about your work at
the Fish Ark Project, in Morelia, but now allow me to communicate my honour
to be in touch with persons like you, Ivan and Colin, among many others on
this address list.
Your input was rather important for me, because right through it I was
enlighten about a few important details about the situation " on the ground
".
The facts you have articulate at your message also illustrate how hobbyists
can help on preservation of our beloved fish in a different way than simply
keep and raise endangered species at home.
It is also an excellent argument for one of the topics led in to discussion
last week - the cooperation between private people ( hobbyists ), zoos,
public aquariums, institutes and societies.
If your project is willing to dispense a number of juveniles for those who
could have an important roll to disseminate groups and communities of these
species around the world, that is no doubt a promising future but, above
all, another outstanding justification for someone do start to put in
practice Michael Koeck's idea.
Well, based on your request, I took the liberty to change a little bit my
messages subject outline this week.
We can have always in mid your words and take in consideration that you are
very busy, although you reed our messages.  
>From now on, it could be easy to do something like to include your name on
the subject, any time it was needed to call your attention for those
messages that require more urgent and specific concern from you. I hope all
agree with this method.
Thanks also for sharing with us the information about Hubbsina from Zacapu
and the  In situ conservation program in the region, as well as the latest
news about conservation of fish diversity.
Above all and especially in my name let me thank you very much the most
important sentence of our discussion so far : " working together we can do
more for the conservation than isolated efforts "... simply brilliant.
Gracias Omar.


Yours

Miguel



-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 18:10
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - Thue Grum-Schwensen ( January 6th 2009 ) message.

Dear all,

Here I am again, this time for my third contribution on this week
discussion, based on the messages arrival order :

Thue Grum-Schwensen ( Tuesday, January 6th 2009 )

Well, good news never stops, and your message was a first-class breath for
any start at all, Thue.
Let me mention that you have a very pragmatic position on this subject,
which is in fact is excellent.
Yes, I agree with you 100%.
But, in my personal opinion, it would be nice if we could let some of the
friends so far only reading our messages, to have some space and time to say
something about the ideas let on discussion.
Remember that someone can have a hypothetical big concern on some issue to
share with us, in particular on this phase of the so called " what " topic.
By now, unless I am wrong, we all agree that things may change and it can be
a considerable advantage on the cooperation between everybody who keep or
study these fish.
Maybe some of our illustrious members on this list could help to build a
needed " bridge " between the academics and hobbyists, but all of us could
work on that.
The important thing is that all participants on this discussion group agree
on the importance of that and, so far, apparently all of us are in harmony.
So let's wait another week or so, letting someone who could have a different
point of view to share with the others present any contradictory fundaments.
Than we close our takings and leave the " what " to go further in to next
step, the " how ".
By my last message of today's participation I'll expose a few ideas of
myself.
Even if Michael Koeck's project didn't go any further, at least we could
start to cooperate in order to establish among the motivated ones, on a
basis of cooperation, solutions for problems like how to maintain these
species in captivity in a sustainable way and how to facilitate the exchange
of breeding groups among us.
Finally, let me say how encouraging was to read that, an eminent association
like Poecilia Scandinavia, was engaged on the cooperation to conservation of
Goodeids, and therefore that was also interested to participate in a project
like this.
Thank you Thue.

Yours

Miguel




-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 18:21
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - Michael Koeck ( January 7th 2009 ) message.

Dear all,

Here I am again, with my fourth contribution on this week discussion, based
on the messages arrival order :

Michael Koeck ( Wednesday, January 7th 2009 )

Michael let me tell you the honour of being on your friends group is mine.
Our reactions are merely a warning sign that your idea as great potential
and we must carry on.
Good news about the Haus des Meeres, thank you.
Please consider the option of assuming this project not only as a Curator
for freshwater fishes, and as a member of a zoo, but as the leading role we
need from you.
Think about it seriously, soon we will be discussion the " how " subject.


Yours

Miguel



-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 18:31
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - Kees de Jong ( January 7th 2009 ) message.

Dear all,

Here I am again, with my fifth contribution on this week discussion, based
on the messages arrival order :

Kees de Jong  ( Wednesday, January 7th 2009 )

Wonderful news Kees !
I renovate my observations made before to Thue Grum-Schwensen with reference
to the position of Poecilia Scandinavia regarding to the project that is
being discussed.
It is in fact very encouraging to know that, two eminent societies like
Poecilia Nederland and Poecilia Scandinavia, are engaged to cooperate in the
terms proposed by Michael Koeck.
Thanks a lot.

Yours

Miguel



-----Mensagem original-----
De: Miguel Andrade 
Enviada: domingo, 11 de Janeiro de 2009 20:06
Para: Michael Koeck; Ivan Dibble; Martin Ravn Tversted; Joel Healy; Miguel
Andrade; Colin Grist; Omar Dominguez; Brian Zimmerman; Miguel Zapater; Matt
Naumann; Alain Grioche; Gasper Gomboc; Guenther Schleussner; Gunter
Teichmann; Guenter-Ellenberg; Horváth Balázs; Kleine Horst; Harro
Hieronimus; Anton Weissenbacher; Dietmar Kunath; Erwin Radax; Patrick
Schmitz; Roman Slaboch; Kees de Jong; Stefan Hertwig; Jen Nightingale, Jonny
Rudd, Alessio Arbuiatti
Assunto: Goodeidae - finishing the " what " issue.

Dear all,

Regardless the fact that I did not address any further comments on the
contributions of Joel Healy and Martin Tversted messages, it doesn't mean
that those contributions were not appreciated by me or that they are not
important.
Any way, we can do now an initial overview or standing point.

Last January the 1st, some questions were proposed for your opinion :

a) What is your judgement concerning a voluntary international solid
network, mostly to share information about Goodeid fish species kept out of
the original habitat ( ex situ ) ?

b) Could such network have a stock coordination to evaluate captivity
collection circumstances, species by species, at any moment, and release
recommendations ?

c) In your personal opinion, is there any dilemma or difficulty to accept
stock recommendations from an international credible “ management “ group,
even concerning your own fish collection ?

d) Do you see any inconvenience in relation to cooperation between private
people ( hobbyists ), zoos, public aquariums, institutes and societies ? (
as a general rule )
 
Some of us, during the past week had the chance to articulate, in a straight
approach or not so much, what we believe about these questions.
As I write before, in one of my comments sent today, it was nice to wait
another week for further contributions.
Question d) was undoubtedly, the most popular theme in focus on the overall
messages exchange this week, also I expected more opinions about c).
So far it seams that we all agree that, in alternative to a certain
opposition from some academics, cooperation between private people (
hobbyists ), zoos, public aquariums, institutes and societies will benefit
the future of Goodeids, whatever the actions of that teamwork would be.
An excellent contribution was Omar Dominguez's sentence " while working
together we can do more for the conservation than any isolated efforts ".  
Some of you weren't able to participate with messages because of some
conjectural language barrier or any other else. Others simply because they
are extremely busy people, and that 's perfectly understandable.
Also the realistically silence of some of you doesn't mean manifest lost
interest but,  sometimes, it means that the previously expressed opinions
are according to one personal way of view it self.
Finally, the interest expressed by to societies was the greatest triumph of
the past week. 
Taking this developments in consideration, I propose to close this
discussion next week with a clear inventory of what the project can turn out
to be and, start without delay, to talk about a few practical issues next,
the so called " how " phase.
Until than, please fell free to express your opinion. 
Have a nice week everybody.


Best regards

Miguel


P.S. All my messages to Thue Grum-Schwensen via Scandinavia Poecilia had
failed today, ( remote host said: 554 5.7.1 Mail appears to be unsolicited
).
Could someone be so kind and me help on this. Thank you !